TIBETEAN AFFINITES
OF THE LICHCHAVIS:
NATIONALITY OF
LICHCHAVIS
The Lichchavis whose
form of republican government was noticed by orientalists in the
first instance attracted the attention of the and curiosity and gave
various views points.
Celebrated Dr V. A.
Smith wrote a short paper on The Tibetean Affinities of the
Lichchavis [see his Early History of India, 3rd Ed, p 155, Dr Smith].
This paper is refered to in successive editions of Dr V. A. Smiths
History, and has been often taken by others as having eastablished
its thesis.
Dr Smith bases his
theory, firstly on the custom of exposure by the Lichchavis of
Vaisalis (=Nichchavis of Manu/Kulluka, Buddhaghosa,
Nisibis/Nisivis/Nisaii of Persian lands etc), of dead human bodies
..a custom which he says also prevails in Tibet. And secondly also on
the judicial procedure of the lichchavis, which according to Dr
Smith, has a very close resemblance with the procedures followed in
ancient Tibet.
(1) COMMON OBSESUIAL
CUSTOMS OF DISPOSING THE DEADS BY TIBTETEANS /LICHCHAVIS:
Dr Smith based his
theory on the powerful evidential Chinese legend saying that Buddha
at Vaisali had observed a cemetery of the Lichchavis, under the clump
of trees and had the cemetery described to him by the Rishis as
under:
In that place, the
corpuses of the men are exposed to be devored by the birds; and there
also they collect and pile up white bones of dead persons, as you
perceive; they burn corpuses there also and preserve the bones in
heaps. They hang the dead bodies also from the trees; there are
others buried there such as have been slain and put to death by their
relatives, dreading lest they should come to life again; whilst
others are left there upon the ground that they may return, if
possible, to their former homes ..[ Beal, Romantic Legend of Sakya
Buddha, p 159].
Based on this
outside evidence, Dr Smith has considered the Lichchavis to have been
of Tibetean origin. The passage above is from an ancient Chinese
legend, 4/5th c AD, relating to Buddha, and therefore, an outside
very powerful evidence confirming the obsequial rituals of the
ancient Lichchavis regarding the disposal of their deads.
How can anybody in
his sane mind refuse the truth conveyed by this ancient non-Indian
evidence regarding the funeral rituals of ancient Lichchavis?
From above it is
also worth noting that the exposure of the deads was also a Tibetean
custom.
But Why Tibetean?
And how come Tibet/Tibeteans came to be connected to this ancient
Persian custom?
The straight and few
word answer to this question is The Iranian Kambojas from eastern
Iran had introduced this custom into Tibet in the pre-christian era.
The Kambojas are also powerfully documented to be historically
connected with Tibet and that the Tibetean Kambojas had ruled Tibet
for many many centuries. Apparently, the custom amongst the
Tibeteans, came to this land through the Kambojas who had ruled over
this country.
It has to be noted
that exactly similar were the funeral rituals of the Ancient
Persians. And the Kambojas being from Persian stock, and thus we can
see a probable link between the Lichchavis
(=Nisivis=Nichchavis)/Tibeteans and the Ancient Persians/Kambojas.
(2)
TIBTETEAN/LICHCHAVI COMMON CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
The second issue on
which Dr V. A. Smith has relied to establish his theory of Tibetean
Affinities of the Lichchavis is based on the close resemblance of
criminal procedure followed by the Lichchavis and the Tibeteans. [For
full description of Dr Smiths views on Lichchavi/Tibtean criminal
procedure, see Ind Ant 1903, p 235,Also see Turner, the Authority of
Dr V. A. Smith on Lichchavi procedure in Journal of Royal Asiatic
Society, 1838, I, 993-994; Stages in Tibetean Procedures , as
described by Babu Sarat Chandra DaS, Proc A.S.B, 1894, p 5]
Notwithstanding the
counter views of some early Indian scholars like Dr K. P. Jayswal, Dr
B. C. Law etc, voiced and based apparently on
Patriotic/Indian-natialisist sentiments, the views of Dr Smith and
scholars of his school including Dr Satish Vidyabhusana etc remain to
be effectively challenged. The Chinese evidence of 4/5th c is very
powerful independent evidence to connect the Lichchavis and the
Tibeteans and hence the Lichchavis/Tibetean and the Persians/Kambojas
as people belonging to one ancient Stock.
We will see some
common features between the Ancient Kamboja Kshatryas and ancient
Lichchavi Kshatryas, in later write up.
A short excerpt from
Rig veda celebrates the warrior god Indra's victory over the evil
Vrta.The opening line contains a number of words with numerous
cognates in the other Indo-European languages.For example,nu is the
same as Greek,Old Irisih,Lithuanian and Old English nu 'now'.Indra's
heroic deeds viryani are 'manly deeds' from the root vir -which is
also found in Latin vir.Old Irish fer. Lithuanian vyras and Old
English wer where it still survives in the compound werewolf.To
proclaim,literally 'speak forth' pra vocam is cognate with Latin pro
'forth' and vovo 'I call'.
pp. 37 The language
of the Vedas is very archaic,and the cultural and geographical world
portrayed in these hyms suggests that they were composed in northwest
India sometime before the first millennium BC with a notional date of
around 1500-1200BC.
pp. 39 The primary
ceramic evidence for migration of Indo-Aryans into the region of the
Hurrians are the black and grey wares that appear abruptly in
northern Mesopotamia and which Ghirshman derives ultimately from the
southeast Caspian
pp. 41..and at no
time prior to the second millennium BC can we regard Southwest Asia
as practicing the horse-and chariot-centred warfare that one finds
among the Indo-Aryans.The earliest evidence for the horse in Western
Asia is presently limited to Tal-I Iblis in south-central
Iran(3500BC) and Selenkahiyeh in Syria(2400-2000BC),and its
attestation in cuneiform texts appears to be similarly late and dates
to the end of the third millennium BC.But from early in the second
millennium BC we find unequivocal evidence for both the horse and the
chariot,and by the seventeenth-sixteenth centuries this form of
warfare is found from northern Anatolia south to Nubia,which
illustrates the rapid spread of this revolutionary technology.J.H.
Crouwel and M.a. Littauer have argued that this evidence suggests a
perfectly logical evolution of the two wheeled cart into the
spoked-wheeled chariot within Western Asia itself prior to the
appearance of the Indo-Aryans whose presence in this region cannot be
demonstrated before about 1600BC.
No easy solution
presents itself since the problems here involve at least three issues
which need not necessarily be linkedthe origin of the domestic horse
in Southwest Asia,the origins of the chariot,and the date of
Indo-Aryan movements in the region.pp.42But we should not be too
quick to exclude the possibility that the earliest chariots were
associated with Indo-Aryans because the Indo-Aryans are not attested
in the Near East until several centuries after the appearance of
chariots..
***It is highly
probable that the Indo-Aryans of Western Asia migrated eastwards,for
example with the collapse of the Mitanni,and wandered into
India.either the Indo-Aryans divided south of an earlier staging area
with some moving east and others far to the west,or they actually
immigrated in mass forming a broad continuum across Western Asia to
the Indus and were later divided by the incursion of Iranian-speaking
peoples.The first explanation is still along those lines advanced by
Ghirshman and others while Indologist,Thomas Burrow,has argued for an
initial Indo-aryan settlement not only north of Mesopotamia but also
of the Iranian plateau itself.The arguments are primarily linguistic
and religious,among which the latter is the most intriguing.
Part 2
...in addition,it
was not only merely the similarities of sounds that were striking but
the structure of the languages as well.The Sanskrit and Lati words
for fire,agnis and ignis respectively,are not only similar in sound
but display similar changes in different grammatical cases:
nominative singular
agnis(Sanskrit) ignis(Latin)
Accusative Singular
agnim(Sanskrit) ignem(Latin)
Dative/Ablative P.
agnibhyas(Sanskrit) ignibus(Latin
pp. 24 ...The
Indo-Europeans did not burst into history;they straggled in over a
period of 3500 years,announcing their arrival in the historical
record as varied media as clay tablets in Anatolia and
Greece,inscriptions carved on the face of an Iranian cliff,a
dedicatory inscription on a German helmet or a Lutheran catechism for
pagan Lithuanians....
The earliest
Indo-European-Speaking peoples to enter the historical record were
the Anatolians who are first attested by about nineteenth century
BC.....pp.25 By about the mid-seventeenth century BC the
Indo-European speakers are declaring themselves in several different
Anatolian languagesBy far the best attested of these is
Hittite....The Assyrian merchants of the nineteenth century BC not
only record the names of Indo-European peoples in their texts but
make it quite clear that there was also a great body of
non-Indo-European-speaking peoples in this region.....
pp. 35
"Probably the
least-contested observation concerning the various Indo-European
dialects is that those languages grouped together as India cand
Iranian show such remarkable similarities with one another that we
can confidently posit a period of Indo-Iranian unity between
Proto-Indo-European language and the subsequent appearance of
individual Indic(or Indo-Aryan) and Iranian languages.To these
languages we may add the Kafiri language of the Hindukush."
In the beginning:
Following is an
attachment to my last post,to discern the primordial origins of the
Persians[Kamboj],Medes,Indo-Aryans and Sarmatian tribes.[all
representatives [also] of the Androvo grave culture of the 2nd
millennium BC]
J.P. Mallory,'In
Search of the Indo-Europeans',Thames and Hudson,1989 ed.
pp.8
"In both
proposing and demonstrating that the languages of europe,Iran and
India had all derived from a common ancestor,James Parsons could well
be credit with having independently discovered what we now call the
Indo-European language family....In 1796 Jones,Chief Justice of
India,founder of the Royal Asiatic Society...presented his famous
discourse on Indian culture....Jones made his famous pronouncement on
the affinities of the ancient language of India--Sanskrit--which I
fear no historian of linguistics can resist quoting:
'The Sanskrit
language,is of wonderful structure;more perfect than greek,more
copius than Latin,and more exquisitely refined than either;yet
bearing to both of them a stronger affinity,both in the roots of
verbs and in the forms of grammar,than could have been produced by
accident;so strong that no philologer could examine all the three
without believing them to have sprung from some common source..There
is a similar reason,for supposing that both the Gothic and
Celtic,though blended with different idiom,had the same origin with
the Sanskrit; and the old Persian might be added to the same family.'
COMMENT
We know the
later instances of Kambojas/Yavana associations and of their sharing
many customs like shaving of heads or following of two varna system
or not entertaining anymore the Braghmanas in their countries. In the
similar way, the Nysiaoi of Meros were probably a hellenized version
of Persian Nisaii. Probably before moving to Hindukush fastnesses
during the reign of Darius, these Nisaii had been close
associates/neighbors to some Yauna settlement from Greek in Persian
land which may have occurred during the earlier Achamenian kings like
Cyrus/Kambujya etc.
The Nisaiia may
indeed have been Persians, rather than the Greek. It is believable
that they had migrated from Achamenian Persia to different parts of
north-west/also India, in the earliy BC centuries, probably, during
the rule of Darius. The Li-tsa-byis/Lichchivis of Tibet/Nepal are to
be connected with these Persian Nisaiis. You must also note that
scholars like Dr Michael invest the Sakya clan of Buddha with Iranian
affinities.
The other version of
Nisaiia is Nisivi or Nisibi. This is close to Nichivi of Kulluka
Bhatta, the Bengalese annotator of Manusmariti. Thus Lichichivis was
also called Nicchivis which was just another name for
Nisibi=Nisivi=Nisiaii or Nysaioi (of Arrian).
Part IV
CONCLUDING COMMENT:
If Sakya tribe of Buddha could be invested with Iranain affinities by
scholars like Dr Michael, how come we cant see such relationship
between the Nisivi/Nisaii/ Nysaioi of Persians affinities and the
Nicchivi/Lichchavi of Tibet/Nepal? History needs to be reinvestigated
and rewritten in its proper perspective.
It is but natural
that during Achemenian Kamboja rule, which comprised almost all of
Asia and spanned Greek and Egypt also, many Greeks traders, soldiers
of fortunes etc must have come and settled in Persian in Central
Asia/north-western regions. As noted above, Persians sources make
clear reference to Yaunas (=Ionians) in their records. These Yaunas
are in fact the Yonas of Prikrit texts and Yavanas of Sanskrit texts.
It is my belief that Yaunas of Persian sources defineely refer to
Greek/Ionians population. Initially, the Yaunas of Iranian sources
ware recorded as Yavanas/Yonas in Indian sources. But since these
Inonian settlers were foreigners and had come from the west, in the
later centuries, any other alian population which had come from the
west, wether Greeks or non-Greeks, were indiscriminately addresswed
as Yavanas in Indian sources.
Some documented
settlements of Yaunas/Yavanas in North-west/Central Asia.
(1): Yavanas in
Kandhar/Archosia.(post Alexandria)
(2) Bahlika Yavanas
in Bacteria..(post Alexandrian)
(3) Prama-Yonas in
Central Asia as neighbors to Parama Kambojas..(Pre-Alexandrian)
These Parama Yonas
have been noted as Ta-Yuans in Chinese sources and in the opinions of
Rene Grousset, Yuan in this term represents the Persian Yauna. K. D.
Sethna seems to locate them in Fargana/Sogdhiana region. The language
traces of ancient Kamboja connect Yognobhi as one dialect of ancient
Kamboja language. This dielect is found on the sources of Zervashan
river. Hence this the northern boundaries of Param Kambojas can be
supposed to have gone as far as upto Zeravashan river. Hence the
Parama Yona, as neighbor to Prama Kamboja can be fixed in Sodgdhiana
as K. D. Sethna has suggested.
(4)And the Nysaioi
Yavanas of Meros/Hindukush(Pre Alexandrian)..if indeed they were the
descendents from the legendary king Dionyses stated to be of Greek
origin. My views on these so-called Nysaio yavanas, see
Nisaii/Nisibi/Nisaya Persians.
Excuse me for
contradictory opinions.
References:
Some Kshatrya Tribes
of Ancient India, 1924, pp 1-29, Dr B. C. Law.
Persian Affinities
of the LichchavisA Review, by Dr Samar Abbas
Persian Affinities
of the Lichchavis By: Prof. (Dr) Satis Chandra Vidyabhusana, MA, MRAS
Indian Antiquary,
Vol XXXVII, pp 78-80, Dr Satish Vidyabhusana
Ethnology of
Republics, Dr K. P. Jayswal (Hindu
Polity, Part I
II, 1978, p 170-179).
Indian Antiquary
1903, pp 233-235
Early History of
India, V. A. Smith, 3rd Ed, p 159.
Romantic Legend of
Sakya Buddha, p 159, Beal.
Paramatthajotika on
Khuddapatha..Buddhaghosa.
Acharya Kulluka
Bhatta on Manusmariti
Part III
1. Powerful evidence
from Manusmiriti Kulluka Bhattas Annotation;
2. Also see
Buddhagosas (4th c Ad) Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha:
Please note that
Kulluka Bhatta and many other scribes of Manusmriti have clearly
written Nicchivi instead of Lichchivi. What is more interesting and
of most historical importance, the 4th c AD Buddhist commentator,
Buddhaghosa, while relating the story of the creation of Lichchvi
tribe derives its name from Nicchavi. [see Buddhaghosas
Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha; see Some Kshatrya Tribes of Ancoent
India, 1924, p 16-17, Dr B. C. Law]
States Buddhaghosa
So that these infants (the mythical ancestors of Lichchavis) owing to
their being nicchavi i.e having no skin, they came to be designated
as Lichchavis. (Buddhaghosa, Paramatthajotika on Khuddapatha].
Thus, the story
described by Buddhaghosa (400 c AD) clearly reveals that the original
name of the tribe was Nicchavi and not Lichchavi and that it was only
at later times that the name Nichchavi changed to Lichchavi.
IMPORTANT COMMENT:
Very Interesting point here.. initially, N was used in place of usual
L of LICHCHAVIi.e initially the name was written as Nichchavi instead
of Lichchavi, as per Buddhaghosa evidence.
Whad does this
indicate?
This means that the
ancient and original term or name must have been Nichivi or Nisivi or
Nysaioi of Arrian or Nysaii of Merw/Bacteria or Nisaya of Media. In
the later centuries, this Nichavi/Nisivi/Nisibi was changed to
Lichchavi.
Thus the Nicchavi
were probably the the Persian Nisaiis/Nisivis/Nisibis who, during
Achemenian ruler Darius, may have moved into northern-eastern Indian
territories and only at later times, came to be addressed as
Lichchavis, in Indian chronicles.
These Nicchavis or
Lichchavis were probably Persians (Kambojas). The Lichchavis have
been called LI-TSA-BYI in Tibetean records. We note that several
scholars like legendary Foucher, Charles Elliot, V. A. Smith, Dr
Gokhale etc etc connect the Kambojas with Tibet. The mode of
disposing the dead by ancient Tibeteans was very similar to the one
practiced in ancient Persia..exposing the dead to be devoured by wild
animals/birds. This practice unequivocally links the ancient
Tibeteans rulers with the Persians.why, because according to several
noted scholars, the Kambojas were rulers of Tibet and being of
Persian stock, the Kambojas probably had also carried the Persian
practice of disposing of the deads into Tibet.
If somebody want
evidence of Kamboja link to Tibet, I can cite numerous referential
quotes from well known scholars of India/world. Already mentioned Dr
Smith, Dr Foucher, Dr C. Elliat, and Dr Gokhale etc above. Also from
catalogue of Skt/Prkt MSSs in the Library of India Office from
Library Office Vol II, Part II[ MSS No 7763, 7771]Also History of
Bengal, I, 191, District Gazetteer (Rajashahi) 1915, p 26, Sen . B.
C. Some Historical Aspects of the Inscriptions of Bengal, p 342, fn,
1). Also Nepali Traditions call Tibet as Kamboja desha. [on the
authority of Pt B. H. Hodgson)
Later we also find
Kambojas connected with Burma (see Brahama Purana 53/16) The Buddhist
Texts like Sasanvamsa also connect the Kambojas conspicuously with
Burma and also Siame.
It is due to these
traditions and ancient Puranic/Buddhist evidence that some ambitious
writers, in one wild sweep, link the ancient Kambojas simultanously
with Tibet, Burma as well as Siam and call this whole region as the
ancient Kamboja. See below:
The code of Manu,
Indias great law book, states that Dravidas, Yavanas (Greeks), Sakas
(Scythians), Pahlavas (Persians), Kambojas (Tibetans, Siamese,
Burmese), and Sinas (Chinese), are sprung from Kshatriyas (The Power
of India - by Michael Pym).
Part II
Likewise, there were
also movements of Persians from old Persian lands into different
parts, outside Persia. The Nyasios of Arrian, in fact may have been
Persians migrants from either Nisaiia of Merw/Balks or from other
Nysa-prefixed geographical place names located in some other parts of
Ancient Persia. Thus, at certain time in history, these Nysaioi of
Meros may have been associated/neighbors to some Yauna sections of
the ancient Greeks/Ionians who, as stated above, may have migrated to
these Asian lands from Minor Asia during earlier times and settled as
neighbors to Nisaiis people in northern Iran. Due to this probable
Nyasiia/Yauna close neighborly associations, some customs of the
Nyasiias may have become identical to those of the ancient Ionians*.
Later on, some of these northern Iranians/Persians i.e Nysasiites
from Nysaiia may have moved to Hindukush ranges and founded their
settlement in Meros in the Hindukush slopes during Achamenian rule
over this region. These somewhat hellenized section of Nyassias have
probably been erroneously identified by Arrian as being one of the
earlier Ionian tribe from Greece, which had come and settled into
Hindukush escarpments in Swat Valley.
Later, the myth of
legendary Dionyses was also invented and connected with these Nysaios
of Meros by these classical chauvinistic writers like Arrian. My gut
feeling is that the Dionyses/Nyasiai story is not more than another
gossip story propagated by classical writers to glorify the
achievents of the Ancient Greeks on the cost of Persians or the
Indians..at least the story seem to project that in ancient times,
some adventurous Greek Hero/Adventurer had come and won this Meros
country from the locals and established his kingdom in the heartland
of Persians/Indians.
COMMENT* We can cite
the examples of Kamboja/Yavana associations and the sharing many
customs like shaving of heads or following of two varna system or not
entertaining anymore the Braghmanas in their countries. Hence the
Niasiia were some what hellanized Persians.
The Nisaiia may
indeed have been Persians, rather than the Greek. It is believable
that they had migrated from Achamenian Persia to different parts of
north-west/also India, in the earliy BC centuries, probably, during
the rule of Darius. The Li-tsa-byis/Lichchivis of Tibet/Nepal are to
be connected with these Persian Nisaiis. You must also note that
scholars like Dr Michael invest the Sakya clan of Buddha with Iranian
affinities.
The other version of
Nisaiia is Nisivi or Nisibi. This is close to Nichivi, the Lichchivi
or Lichchavi of Kulluka Bhatta, the annotator of Manusmariti. The
Lichichivis are also called Nicchivis which is just another name for
Nisivi/Nisiaii or Nysaioi (of Arrian).
According to
Ptolemy,1 Arrian,2, Strabo,3 and other classical writers, Nisibis was
a most notable town in Aria to the South-East of the Caspian Sea.
Wilson 4 identifies it with the modern town of Nissa (off Herat) on
the north of the Elburz Mountains between Asterabad and Meshed.
Vines5 grew here abundantly and it is traditionally known to have
been the birthplace of the wine-god Dionysos. M. de St. Martin6
observes that Nisibis must have been of Median or Persian foundation,
for its name is purely Iranian and figures in the cosmogenic
geography of the Zend Avesta, and this observation tallies well with
the account of Arrian, who, in his Indika7 distinctly says that the
Nysaioi (the inhabitants of Nysa or Nisibis) were not an Indian8
race.
The following has
been bugging me for quite some time now. Perhaps you could shed some
light on the issue.
The Greek[Ionian]
element in the Yavanas,was it derived mainly from the Alexandrian
Greeks or the pre-Alexandrian ?
-- It is well
attested that Greeks inhabited Afghanistan prior to the arrival of
Skandar.In fact,if I recall correctly, Alexander sacked a colony of
Afghan-Greeks,worshippers of Dionyses who had been abiding in
Afghanistan for generations,because they are supposed to have behaved
treacherously towards the Macedonians in antiquity. AG extracted
supreme retribution on behalf of his forefathers--
MR Responds
Nysaioi of Meros:
Nisaii/Nyasa and
other Nysa-connected place names of Persia
Nisibi/Nisivi Tribe
of Ancient Persia
Nicchavi=Lichchavi
tribe of Indian texts (Indian/Nepali Texts).
LI-TSA-BYI (Tibetean
)
The Nysaioi clan of
Meros/Hindukush was probably not a Greek tribe in my view, though,
Arrian would like us to believe that they were ancient settlers from
Greece who had accompanied Mythical Dionyses in some remote antiquity
and settled in this region. The best probability is that the Nysaioi
were Persians/Iranians who may have migrated from the place name like
Nisaiia located in Merw Bacteria or Nysaya located in Media or
else some other place name connected with/derived from prefix Nysa-
(Eilers, 1987: 50 Sqq, 70 , lists quite a number of place names in
modern Iran that can be derived from Nisa-) long times ago during the
or before the Achamenian rule.
Note that actually,
Nisaiia was also a geographical place name located in estern Iran
between Bacteria and Merw situated north-west of Heart. This Avestan
region was very close to Avestan speaking Kambojas and its possible
that the inhabitants of Nisaiia were Avestan speaking Persian
Kambojas.
There are known to
be many Nisaiia versions located in different parts of Ancient
Persia/Iran. If you want proof, see Home of Aryans, pp 21/22, 35, by
Dr Michael for more information on Nisaii and other Nysa-related
geographical names located in ancient Persia. There was also Nisaya,
a Dahyu located in Medianorth-west Iran.
See Nisaiia, Nysaya,
and othewr Nysa- connected geographical place names in Persia at page
21-22 of the following website..
http://w
ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/AryanHome.pdf
The Ancient History
of Iran, India Greece is only anybodys best guess. But one
thing appears indisputable. The ancient civilizations were not
existing in complete isolation. During Achamenian rule, the Greeks
who were subject people of Persians must have had the opportunity to
move from Minor Asia and founded some Greek settlements in other
parts of Persian empires as traders, or adventurers/soldiers of
fortune. We notice the Ionian term Yauna from Old Persian
iunscriptions which surely identifies with Ionians=Greeks. There was
also some Ta-Yuan settlements(per Chinese evidence) in Central Asia
in Sogdha region, I believe. Further, I believe, that this Ta-Yuan
was a also a colony of Greek Ionians/Yaunas of Achamenian period.
Some heavy stuff.I
will comment but it will be first impression or 'gut instinct'
responses.
. "cf:
"Sanskrit name of KABOL is KAMBOJ and this so similar to KAMBOH
that on the authority of their traditions, these people
(Kamboj/Kamboh)
may safely be
regarded to have been the ancient inhabitants of
Kabol.
(Supplementary Glossary of India, p 304, Henry M Elliot) "
Wow! I never knew
Elliot said the above.Sanskritazion of Kabol is indeed the viable
phonetication of Kamboj.Couple that with the traditional location of
your people in the region in question ,add the
Asvaka/Aspassios['Persian Tribe','horsy Iranians',i.e. Kamboj]
element and the case seems very compelling.Also this in your
favour--as per Olaf Caroe,the Aspassios were traders of fine
horses;Kambojas fit this bill perfectly .
"KAOFEU=KAOFU=KIEU-FEOU=
KAMBU=KAMBOJA
Many noted scholars
like J. W. McCrindle have accepted the Kaofu (=Kubha/Kophes or
Afghanistan)of Hiun Tsang as Kamboja. Mcrindle also states that name
Afghan is evidently evolved from Ashvaka, the Assakenois of
Arrian.[Magasthenes And Arrian, p 180; Alexandras Invasion of India,
p 38, J. W. McCrindle)"
--indeed we have
McCrindle,Caroe,Dupree,et. al all confirming the name Afghanistan
being derived from the Sanskrit Asvaka.I cannot but agree.I would say
air tight.
"In fact,
Cunnigham has blantantly errored here in erroneously identifying the
Kaofu clan of the Kambojas(Kaofeu) which had transplanted itself from
Pamirian/Badakshan Kamboja (=Parama Kamboja) into Kabol valley during
second c BC 'as one of the five clans of Yuches or Tukharas'.
Undoubtedly, the Chinese 'Kaofeu' translates into Kambu or Kamboj,
per Hiun Tsang ...hence the Kaofeu clan of Cunnigham belonged to the
Kambojas and not to the Tukharas unless the Tukhara tribe itself was
an offshoot from the Trans-Oxian Kambojas. (cf Also Dr Kambojs views,
pp 43-44, Ancient Kamboja..1981) "
M., trying to
dissect the Yue Chi origins is a loosing battle.Cunningham is at best
a tentative source of the 18th century.Plus he timeline chronologies
are notoriously unreliable.I agree with you that there is not much
substance to his contention.
The Yue Chi or any
of their five sections first set foot in Afghanistan only in
160BC.Kamboj had been occupying this region for hundreds of years
prior to this event.In the year 2002 Vogelsang said the following
regarding them;
pp. 137-138
"The ethnic
origin of the Yuezhi is UNKNOWN,and there is even NO firm evidence as
to their relationship with the various ethnic groups mentioned by
Classical sources.We are neither certain about the exact routes
followed by the Yuezhi.
But Vogelsang does
spell out the five strains of the Yue Chi,quoting the Han annals.The
following section of Vogelsang is derived from the Hou Han Shu(Later
Han Annals).It is the only part of Yue Chi ethno-identity supported
by numismatic evidence.And indeed the Annal confirms Yue Chi invaded
and took over Kao-fu from the hands of Indo-Parthian Gondophares and
his successor Abdagases and set foot into Afghanistan sometime in
160BC. So when Yue Chi did arrive,it was the Parthians who were
ruling Kabul,not even Kamboj!
note**.Also
note,that Yue Chi divided themselves[or the Country] into five
sections ONLY AFTER they settled in Bactria in 160BC!!A hundred years
later the ruler of Kuei-shuang destroyed the other FOUR arms and made
himself supreme ruler of Yue Chi.
pp. 145
"Formerly,when
the Yue Chih had been routed by the Hsiung-nu,they moved to
Ta-hsia(Bactria?) and divided the country into five hsi
hou(yabghu):Hsin-mi,Kuei-shuang,his(or Pa)-tun,and
Tu-mi(Termez/Tirmidh?).More than a hundred years passed,the yabghu of
Kuei-shuang,(called)Ch'iu-chiu-chueh,attacked and destroyed(the
other)four yabghu,st himself up as king.The Kingdom was called
Kuei-Shang.The king invaded An-hsi9Parthia),took the country of
KAO-FU9Kabul?).He also destroyed P'u-ta and Chi-pin,and completely
subjugated them.Ch'iu-chiu-chueh died at the age of more than
eighty.Yen-Kao-chen succeeded him as king.He in turn destroyed
T'ien-chu(northern India) and placed a general to supervise and
govern there.Since that time the Yueh-chih have become most rich and
prosperous.(Peopel of) many countries speak of the King of
Kuei-shang,but in China they are called Ta Yueh-chih,according to
their OLD name."
***note:And the
death nail for Cunningham is that 'Kuo Fu' is NOT even one of the
five arms of the Yue Chi,as listed by the Hou Han Annal. Again, the
five were ,Hsin-mi,Shuang-mi,Kuei-shuang,His-tun,Tu-mi.***
Thanks M.,...
By M/R
(130.86.22.89) on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 08:22 am:
FACTS YOUR COMMENTS
ARE WELLCOM:
Athavaveda attests
the Kamboja which term Dr Michael attributes to Iranian/Avestan
speaking tribe and localizes them in the region
from Kabol valley to
as far as Archosia/Kandhar.[Early Eastern Iran
and the
Atharavaveda, p 115, fn 84, Dr Michael Witzel].
Also cf: his
article: THE HOME OF THE ARYAQNS,[fn 21, 58 62] where
he localizes ancient
Kamboja around Kandhar/Archosia. But his
Ambautai [=Kamboja],
hower, is located somewhere in the Hindukush
mountains north of
Kabol[=Kamboja of H. M. Elliot]. Cf S Levi's
Tambyzoi [=Kamboja]
localized in Badakshan/on Oxus river [see Indian
Antiquaries, 1923, p
54; Some Problems of Ancient India, p 1, K. D.
Sethna; Ancient
Kamboja People the Country, 1981, p p 44, 147, 155,
Dr Kamboj].
http://w
ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/AryanHome.pdf,
Also we have seen
earlier that Kambyson=Kapishi has been identified and connected with
Kambojas by eminent Doctors like Dr S. Levi, Dr Taran, Dr W. K.
Fraser Tytler, Wilber, and many more scholars. Cf also
Kambistholi=Kamboja [H. H. Wilson, Vishnu Purana, p p 160, fn 146]
THUS if these four
eminent DoctorsDr S. Levi, Dr Michael, Dr Taran, H. S. Wilson are
correct in identifying the Ptolemian/Arrian terms Tambyzoi, Ambautai,
Kambyson Kambistholi (Kandhar) as austric-Asian transliteration
of Sanskrit Kamboja in the Ptolemys Geography, then the Kamboja foot
prints are clearly visible in Tambyzoi[=Badakshan],
Ambautai/Hindukush mountains[=Munjan/Wakhan/
Kafirsthan/Kohistan?],Kambyson (=Kapishi= Begram/Lamghan) as also in
Kambistholi [=Kandhar per Arrian].
Note that all these
terms appear to have been connected with/derived from the
Standard Sanskrit
term Kamboja in the opinions of these eminent scholars.
FACTS: Any comments?
cf: "Sanskrit
name of KABOL is KAMBOJ and this so similar to KAMBOH that on the
authority of their traditions, these people (Kamboj/Kamboh)
may safely be
regarded to have been the ancient inhabitants of
Kabol.
(Supplementary Glossary of India, p 304, Henry M Elliot)
KAOFEU=KAOFU=KIEU-FEOU=
KAMBU=KAMBOJA
Hiun Tsang also
refers to the region of Afghanistan as Kaofu, which term is
eqquivbalent to Sanskrit Kamboja. [see Problems of Ancient India,
2000, p 224, K. D. Sethna; Also Chandergupta Mauryan and His Times,
Madras, 1943, p 280, Dr K. R. K. Mukerjee]
Many noted scholars
like J. W. McCrindle have accepted the Kaofu (=Kubha/Kophes or
Afghanistan)of Hiun Tsang as Kamboja. Mcrindle also states that name
Afghan is evidently evolved from Ashvaka, the Assakenois of
Arrian.[Magasthenes And Arrian, p 180; Alexandras Invasion of India,
p 38, J. W. McCrindle)
Cf According to
Chinese recensions of Tathagatagrahamsutra of Ratnakuta, the Sanskrit
name Kamboja has been refered to as Kieufeou and in Tinbetean
recensions, it is found mentioned as Kampoje or Kampoce etc [See
Political Social Movements in Ancient Panjab, pp 254-256, Dr
Buddha Parkash; cf Ancient Kamboja1981, p 47, Dr Kamboj; cf These
Kamboj People, 1979, p 355, Kirpal Singh Dardi.]
According to
Cunnigham, "The Kao-fu was the appellation of one of the
five tribes of the
Yuchi or Tukhari, who are said to have given their
own name to the town
which they occupied, towards the end of second
century before
Christ (The Ancient Geography of India, p 15).
In fact, Cunnigham
has blantantly errored here in erroneously identifying the Kaofu clan
of the Kambojas(Kaofeu) which had transplanted itself from
Pamirian/Badakshan Kamboja (=Parama Kamboja) into Kabol valley during
second c BC 'as one of the five clans of Yuches or Tukharas'.
Undoubtedly, the Chinese 'Kaofeu' translates into Kambu or Kamboj,
per Hiun Tsang ...hence the Kaofeu clan of Cunnigham belonged to the
Kambojas and not to the Tukharas unless the Tukhara tribe itself was
an offshoot from the Trans-Oxian Kambojas. (cf Also Dr Kambojs views,
pp 43-44, Ancient Kamboja..1981)
The following has
been bugging me for quite some time now. Perhaps you could shed some
light on the issue.
The Greek[Ionian]
element in the Yavanas,was it derived mainly from the Alexandrian
Greeks or the pre-Alexandrian ?
-- It is well
attested that Greeks inhabited Afghanistan prior to the arrival of
Skandar.In fact,if I recall correctly, Alexander sacked a colony of
Afghan-Greeks,worshippers of Dionyses who had been abiding in
Afghanistan for generations,because they are supposed to have behaved
treacherously towards the Macedonians in antiquity. AG extracted
supreme retribution on behalf of his forefathers--
Following rehash is
for my own benifit and formulation of thoughts,for future quick
refrence:
"ARRIANs
KAMBISTHOLI = KAMBOJA of H. H. Wilson
We have part of the
name Kambi in Kambistholi of Arrian, the last two syllables, no
doubt, represent the Sanskrit Sthala place, district, and the word
denotes the dwellers in the Kamba or Kambis country, so Kambojas may
be explained as those born in Kamba or Kambis.[H. H. Wilso The Vishnu
Purana, p 160, fn 146]."
"PTOMEMIAN
KAMBYSON =KAPISHA =KAMBOJA OF Dr TARAN, Dr S Levi, W. K. Fraser
Tytler, Wilber and others ."
"According to S
Levi, the Tambyzoi located on Oxus in accordance with Ptolemys
evidence is also the asutro-asiatic transliteration of Sanskrit
Kamboj into Ptolemian Geography. [Indian Antiquaries, 203, 1923, p
54; cf McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268; Problems of Ancient India, 2000,
Sethna, p 1; Ancient Kamboja Dr Kamboj.]"
M says, "I dont
think, the Ashvaka tribe is ever mentioned in Mahabharata (contrary
to what you have posted).."
You're probably
right.Olaf Caroe must have made an error in this instant.
Thanks,
By MR
(130.86.22.40) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 10:21 pm:
SOME PTOLEMIAN
TERMS:
AMBAUTAI= KAMBOJA of
DR MICHAEL
Dr Michael:
"..Obviously, the NW and the clearly non-IA tribes limited to
the RV should be regarded separately. Here we find Kamboja (AV, PS+),
cf. OP. Kambujiya 'Cambyses' .. however, cf. Gr. Ambautai, a tribe in
the Hindukush area, with the typical Saka suffix -tai (Sauroma-tai,
etc.).107 An interchange k : zero "points in the direction of
Munda" (Kuiper 1991: 38; cf S Levi, IA, 203, 1923, p 52 sqq)
which would be rather surprising at this extreme western location in
E. Afghanistan (Witzel 1980). ..
Concludes Dr
Michael: "Anyway, as all Rig-Vedic ethnography is uncertain, the
case remains open........"
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=%22+Ambautai%
2C+a+tribe+in+the+Hindukush%22+ei=UTF-8
Dr Michael argues
that, linguistically,
K = = > S
K == > 0
Hence Kamboj == >
Samboj and also Kamboj == > Kambau+tai == > Ambautai
Thus the term
Ambautai of Ptlomemy is identified as Autsro-Asiatic transliteration
of Kamboja and which per Ptolemian evidence is located in Hindu Kush
mountains obviously in the territories to the south of Oxus. This may
applies to Munjan, Wakhan or some locations on southern slopes of
Hindukushmay be Kohistan/Kaffirstan which region is still inhabted by
warlike Kamoze/Camoje/Kam tribes of Hindukush.
But Dr Witzel,
otherwise locates his Kamboja mainly in Kandhar/Archosia. See
below.Why?.
http://w
ww1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0501/ejvs0501a.txt
... The kamboja (AV,
PS) settled in SE Afghanistan (Kandahar); cf. O.Pers. kambujIya (or
kambaujIya?) 'Cambyses'; however, their name is
transmitted as
Ambautai by ...
For
Ambautai=Kambautai, see also note 98 of the following paper from Dr
Michael Witzel where he further dilates on this term and its
linguistic implications/connections..
.perhaps one should
compare the scythian plural suffix tai .suffix such as in the
Ambautai = [(K)ambautai?? =Kamboja] , Ptolemys Geography 6.18.3 [see
Italo Ronaco Ostrian und Zentralasien bei pulomemasios, Dis Mainz
1968 p 121 cf also Bulitai]
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:crwB9OpBOe0J:w
ww.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hydro.pdf+ambautaihl=enie=UTF-8
PTOLEMIAN TAMBYZOI
=KAMBOJA OF Dr S Levi others.
According to S Levi,
the Tambyzoi located on Oxus in accordance with Ptolemys evidence is
also the asutro-asiatic transliteration of Sanskrit Kamboj into
Ptolemian Geography. [Indian Antiquaries, 203, 1923, p 54; cf
McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268; Problems of Ancient India, 2000, Sethna, p
1; Ancient Kamboja Dr Kamboj.]
This Ptolemian
Tambyzoi, on the otherhan, appears to be mainly located in Badakshan.
PTOMEMIAN KAMBYSON
=KAPISHA =KAMBOJA OF Dr TARAN, Dr S Levi, W. K. Fraser Tytler, Wilber
and others .
"The city of
Gange is also mentioned by Ptolemy, but he distinguishes it from
Tamralipti. He mentions five mouths of the Ganges: the KAMBYSON
mouth, the most western; the Mega; the KAMBERIKHON; the Pseudostomon
and the Antibole. There are contradictions as to the
tributaries of the
Ganges. Kambyson has been identified as the Kapisa by great
grammarian of the region Panini. The Mega has been
identified with
Hooghly......
[From: South Asia:
Eastern Himalayan Culture, Ecology and People Ancient Heritage and
Future Prospects Hasna Jasimuddin Moudud ]
ARRIANs KAMBISTHOLI
= KAMBOJA of H. H. Wilson
We have part of the
name Kambi in Kambistholi of Arrian, the last two syllables, no
doubt, represent the Sanskrit Sthala place, district, and the word
denotes the dwellers in the Kamba or Kambis country, so Kambojas may
be explained as those born in Kamba or Kambis.[H. H. Wilso The Vishnu
Purana, p 160, fn 146].
Now the KAMBISTHOLI
of Arrian is located in Kandhar/Afghanistan.
Facts, on the
Assakenois/Aspasios, I will presnt the material later.
Thanks for your data
on Assakenos (Ashvakaynas of Panini's Ashtadhyai... the Ashvakas of
Markanda Purana, and the Assakas of Buddhist Jatakas)
...The
Ashvakas/Ashvakayanas were indianized kind of Kamboja clans
And the Aspasios
(Ashvayanas of Panini's Ashtadhyai...)
The Aspasa/Aspasian
Kamboja clans were more Iranians than Indians in culture/language].
Thus again we see
that Kambojas had come to acquire both both Indian as well as Iranian
cultural/linguistic connections with passage of time.
Aspasas/Aspasios.
I dont think, the
Ashvaka tribe is ever mentioned in Mahabharata (contrary to what you
have posted)..though we find references to Ashvaka/Ashmaka in
Markanda Puranas/Jatakas etc.
The Paninian
equivalents for Ashvakas are Ashvakayana and Ashvayana tribes of
Kunar/Swat valleys.
Thanks
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:28 pm:
M--
Following is a
wonderful map of the Yavana-Kamboja-Gandhara and surrounding
country.I can clearly make out Gandhara and the Parpamysade -Kabul
area, where Kamboja and Yavana was located(Yes?)!
http://ww
w.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ucb/oxus-indus.jpg
Could you point out
to me exactly where the Y-K-G territories are roughly situated by
refering to corresponding place names from the above map. Put it in
perspective.
...... O.K.!,that's
enough for today.
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 03:02 pm:
M.,
Check this out--
http://ww
w.jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2003-weekly/nos-16-02-2003/dia.htm
All in a name
By Salman Rashid
"As for the
word Afghan, it comes from the Sanskrit word Ashvaka where ashva
stands for horse. Now ashva of the Sanskrit transforms into asp in
the Persian in which language these people were called Aspagan. One
has to be completely tone-deaf not to see the transformation of
Aspagan to Afghan through usage. From the chronicles of Alexander the
Macedonian we hear of two tribes called Assakenoi and Aspasioi that
he fought with and defeated in the region of the Katgala Pass between
Swat and Dir. Assakenoi is a straightforward Hellenised version of
Ashvaka (Assaka in the vernacular) while Aspasioi is what the word
Aspzai -- Tribe of the Horse, became on Macedonian tongues..Among
these people was one tribe -- the Aspzai -- of excellent horsemen who
were known for breeding and trading in the finest horses. The mind
does not have to be taxed hard to see the modern, duly Islamised
tribal name of Yusufzai as coming from the ancient Aspasioi or
Aspzai."
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 07:22 am:
M.,
Here's some research
on the Asskenois/Aspasios.
(1)Following is what
Louis Dupree,the world specialist in Afghan studies says:
Louis
Dupree,Afghanistan,Princeton University Press,Princeton,New
Jersey,1973 ed.
pp.282-283
Travelling through
Bamiyan and the Ghorband Valley(Tarn 1966,88) he [Alexander ]reached
Alexandria-ad-Caucasum in ten days.Near Jalalbad,Alexander split his
army into two major groupsHis troops poured through Laghman and
followed the Kunar River into Bajaur and Swat,fighting all along the
way,meeting on equal terms such warlike groups as the
Aspassi(Bajauri) and the Assaceni(Swatis,with capital at Massaga),who
wounded him in the ankle.The Kafirs(Edelberg,1965) living near
Nysa(not Swat as suggested by Tarn,1962,89) in
Kunar(Koh-I-nor,traditionally founded by Dionysius) sent 300 cavalry
to fight with Alexander against Poros(the PAURAVA Rajah of the
Punjab)whome Alexander defeated with great skill at the battle at the
Jhelum in 326BC.(Fuller,1958).
(2)Following is what
Olaf Caroe says.
Olaf Caroe,The
Pathans 550BC--AD1957,Macmillan Co Ltd.,New York,1965 ed.
.Aspasoii country in
Gandhara.
O.C.,pp. 37-38
It need hardly be
said that acceptance of the equation Aparutai with Aparidaifor that
is how the Afridis pronounce itby no means carries with it the
conclusion that the Apautai of Darius 7th satrapy occupied the
identical territory in Tirah,Bazar,and the Khaibar and Kohat Pass,now
held by the Aparidai.But it is to be noted that the Aparutai are
mentioned as a tribe inhabiting a territory in that satrapy near
to,if not contiguous with,the Gandarioi,and there is no doubt
whatever that the Gandarioi are the people of the Peshawar
Valley.And,as we know,the Aparidais home today is just there,next to
the Peshawar Valley.Moreover the homes of the greater number of the
Aparidai are situated in mountain eyries,hard of approach and leading
nowhere but to alpine pastures in the Sufed Koh from 10000 to 15000
feet above the sea
Arrain :
pp. 49-50,O.C.,
It remains to
consider Alexanders own route.I give here a translation of the
relevant portions of Arrains text:
Alexander took
command in person of the other division of the army.And advanced into
the country of the Aspassi and Guraei and Assaceni.The route which he
followed was hilly and rugged and lay along the course of a river
called the choes,which he had difficulty crossing[later]he advanced
to the river Euaspla where the chief of the Aspassi was ...[and after
operations] then crossed the mountains,and came to a city at their
base named Arigaion,As this city seemed to occupy a very advantageous
site,he commanded Craterus to fortify it strongly[and after further
battles in which he defeated the Aspassi] he marched thence to invade
the country of the Assaceni,Craterus,who had now finished the work of
fortifying Arigaion,the country of the Guraei,where he had to cross
the Guraeus,the river giving the name to the country..Alexander took
the city by storm and captured the mother and daughter of Assacenus..
pp. 55There remain
the names of the tribes,the Aspassi,the Guraei and the Assaceni,whome
Alexander overcame ni the country between Kunar and Swat.From what
has been said it is clear that the Aspassi lived on both sides of the
divide which now carries the Durrand line,both in Kunar and in
Bajaur,the Guraei in what is now Lower Dir on the Panjkora,and the
Assaceniin whose territory Massaga,Bazira and Ora were suitatedin
Talash and the Swat valley.
.On the origins of
Aspassi, Olaf Caroe clearly says they were a Persian Tribe..
pp. 55 -56
To the identity of
the Aspassi there is an interesting clue in Strabo,who calls them
hippasi.Now the Avestan Persian for a horse is aspa,the modern
Persian asb,and the Pakhtu as,aspa(horse,mare).The fact that Strabo
translated the name of this tribe into Hippasii proves that he was
aware of its etymological significance.Clearly we have here something
both horsy and Iranian.
In the course of
recent discussions on the origins of Yusufzais it was remarked to
me,without any refrence whatever to arrains tribal names,that the
ordinary Yusufzai villager never refers to himself as Yusufzai,but as
Isapzai or even Asapzai.My interlocutor,one of the Khans of
hoti,added that it seemed probable to him that,with the advent of
Islam,his ancestors decided to assimilate an old word to the
scriptures,with the result that Asap or Isap became Yusuf(Joseph).
Long years in court
spent listening to Yusufzai witnesses confirm this phonetic
transferenceanother instance of the afridis p for f. The equation
cannot be proved,but it is attractive to see in the Aspasii of Arrain
and Hippasii of Strabo the prototype of the Isapzai of today.
The Assaceni of
Swat,no less than the Aspasii of Kunar and Bajaur,have a name derived
from chivalry.The Sanskrit word for horse is asva,and a tribe named
the Asvaka is mentioned in the Mahabharta as the barbarous denizens
of the far north.The Sanskrit Asvaka would become Assaka in
Prakrit,leading directly to the Greek transcription .So here we have
Indian in place of Persian horsesmost suitable,for just as the
Aspasii,a Persian tribe,lived in Kunar and Bajaur,so the Assaceni,an
Indian tribe,dwelt in Talash and Swat.As we would expect at that
time,the dividing line between Iran and India would have been
somewhere between the Kunar and the Swat Rivers,possibly on the
Guraeus or Panjkora River.Later records establish that the
inhabitants of Swat and the regions east of Panjkora had Indian
affinities until the time of the Pathan occupation in the fifteenth
and sixteenth centuries.
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 05:31 am:
MR,
A slight change of
gears--
cf: The Kamboja (AV,
PS) settled in S.E. Afghanistan (Kandahar); cf. O.Pers. KambujIya (or
KambaujIya?) 'Cambyses'; however, their name is transmitted as
Ambautai by Ptolemy (Geography 6.18.3), without the typical prefix)..
(Ref: ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES, Vol. 5 (1999), issue 1
(September), Editor-in Chief Dr Michael Wintzel, Sanskrit Department,
Harvard University).
-----
As per Witzel,Kamboj
is the Ambutai of Ptolemy. Now this region[people] was located
in/around the Oxus,yes!?Is this [Ambutai] also not the
Asskenois/Aspasios of Arrian,or am I way off base here?
Also ,if you could
please furnish [all] sources drawing analogy with Kamboj and
Asskenois/Aspasios,at your leisure.I hope I'm not imposing.
Thank You,
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:29 am:
Not bad Sunny.
But I'll believe it
when you print the five pages.
I'm interested in
the following two books:
--."The
Kanyakubja-Gaua struggle, from the sixth to the twelfth century A.D.
/ D.C. Sircar. "
I'm going to read
the following pretty soon:
-A grammar of the
Prakrit language, based mainly on Vararuchi, Hemachandra, and
Purushottama [by] D. C. Sircar
These might be
relevant for Kamboj studies:
Inscriptions of
Asoka / D. C. Sircar.
-Epigraphic
discoveries in East Pakistan, by D. C. Sircar
-Asokan studies / by
D.C. Sircar.
By MR
(130.86.22.182) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:19 am:
Facts:
In the edicts, they
are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in
this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical
sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian
MR,could you
possibly expound on Arrain with regard to the above?
MR
Hi Facts:
Arrian places the
Astekenois, Assaknois and Aspasios tribes (=Kambojas of scholars like
Dr E. Lamotte, Dr Jayswal, Dr H.C Raychaudhary, Dr B. N. Mukerjee,
J.W. McCrindle, Dr Buddha Parkash etc) between the Gandharas and the
Yavanas. He locates his Gandhara tribes in a place name which he
calls Puskalaveti and which has now been identified with modern
Peshawer and its adjoining areas.
According to Dr
Jayswal, the Asskenois/Aspasios of Arrian occupy exactly the same
geographical place as the Kambojas of king's Ashoka's Rock Edicts (V
XIII). [see his Hindu Polity, Part I II, 1978, p 140]
By Sunny Singh
(207.213.221.191) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 02:16 am:
Hi Facts,
It is available, I
may take a look at it this weekend. It seems he wrote some other
interesting books:
-Ancient Malwa and
the Vikramaditya tradition, by D.C. Sircar.
-Studies in Indian
coins, by D. C. Sircar
-Indian epigraphical
glossary [by] D. C. Sircar
-Cosmography and
geography in early Indian literature
-Studies in the
society and administration of ancient and medieval India, by D. C.
Sircar
-Early Indian
numismatic and epigraphical studies / by D. C. Sircar.
-Studies in the
religious life of ancient and medieval India [by] D. C. Sircar.
-Pracyavidya-taragi;
golden jubilee volume of the Department of Ancient Indian History and
Culture. Edited by D. C. Sircar.
-The Kanyakubja-Gaua
struggle, from the sixth to the twelfth century A.D. / D.C. Sircar.
-A grammar of the
Prakrit language, based mainly on Vararuchi, Hemachandra, and
Purushottama [by] D. C. Sircar
-Early Indian trade
and industry / edited by D.C. Sircar.
-Aspects of the
cultural history of ancient Bihar / by D.C. Sircar.
-Inscriptions of
Asoka / D. C. Sircar.
-Problems of the
Ramayana / by D.C. Sircar.
-The successors of
the Satavahanas in lower Deccan [microform] / by Dineschandra Sircar.
-Problems of early
Indian social history / D.C. Sircar.
-Some problems
concernig the Kusanas
-Land system and
feudalism in ancient India; [proceedings] Edited by D. C. Sircar.
-Foreigners in
ancient India and Laksmi and Sarasvati in art and literature / edited
by D. C. Sircar
-The Guhilas of
Kikindha, by D. C. Sircar.
-Sraddhanjali,
studies in ancient Indian history : D.C. Sircar commemoration volume
/ editors, K.K. Das Gupta, P.K. Bhattacharyya, R.D. Choudhury
-A grammar of the
Prakrit language : based mainly on Vararuchis Prakitaprakasa / by
Dines Chandra Sircar.
-Saskrtika itihasera
prasaga / Dinesacandra Sarakara.
-Select inscriptions
bearing on Indian history and civilization.
-The Bharata war and
puranic genealogies; [seminar papers]. Edited by D. C. Sircar.
-Indological studies
: Prof. D.C. Sircar commemoration volume / edited by S.K. Maity,
Upendra Thakur.
-Pala-purba yugera
basanucarita / Dinesacandra Sarakara.
-Some epigraphical
records of the medieval period from eastern India / D. C. Sircar.
-Social life in
ancient India. Edited by D. C. Sircar.
-Indian epigraphy,
by D. C. Sircar.
-Silalekha-Tamrasasanadira
prasaga
-Resama
-Pracina itihasera
kahini.
-Epigraphic
discoveries in East Pakistan, by D. C. Sircar
-Asokan studies / by
D.C. Sircar.
-Select inscriptions
bearing on Indian history and civilization : from the sixth to the
eighteenth century A.D. / edited by Dines Chandra Sircar.
-Inscriptions of
Parakesarivarman. General editor: D. C Sircar. Editor: G. V.
Srinivasa Rao. Issued by G. S. Gai.
-Sri Dinesacandrika,
studies in Indology : Shri D.C. Sircar/ editors, B.N. Mukherjee ...
[et al.].
-The Sakti cult and
Tara [papers of seminars]. Edited by D. C. Sircar.
-The Sakta pihas.
[Edited by] D. C. Sircar.
Regards,
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 01:07 am:
Sunny,
Prove your point.
Quote from the following book pp.195-200,then I'll believe you have
the most comprehensive library:
Sircar,D.C.,Studies
in the Geography of Ancient and Medieval India(Delhi 1971;1997 second
and revised edition).
Or do you want to be
known as the 'gappi' of Punjabi Talk?
By Sunny Singh
(207.213.221.191) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 12:38 am:
Hi Facts, living in
California, I have access to books you can only dream of obtaining.
Hows the weather in Calgary? Best Wishes,
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:27 pm:
MR,
Rehash,to formulate
my thoughts.
In the edicts, they
are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in
this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical
sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian
MR,could you
possibly expound on Arrain with regard to the above?
"Yavanas are
belived in southern Archosia/Kandhar, the Gandharan were in
Peshawere/Taxila-Rawalpindi on west side of Kabol river, The Kambojas
in Kabol valley and according to Sircar and Michael, also in northern
Kandhar, you can imagine the kind of geographical relationship this
had."
Gandhara would
therefore be more fully affected by events stemming from India proper
than the other two.Gandhara was much more 'Indianized' I bet,
comparatively speaking.
"I have also
noted couple of western references which invest Kambojas and Gandhara
with one ethnicity. I would search and put up here. And this is very
natural too."
Indeed,this is to be
expected.
"The
YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU of Pali texts represent the YONAS who had settled
(with Kambojas)in the Kamboja (country). They had become integral a
part of this (Kamboja) country and started to be considered more as
the Kambojas than the Yonas or Yavanas....[see Hindu polity, Part I
II, A Constitutional History of Hindu India, Dr Jayswal]."
I will go so far as
to conclude that all three were basically pretty much
similar;racially,socially,culturally.
"He(Sircar)
exclusively invests the Kambojas with pure Iranian
ethnicity/affinities. "
Is this not
correct?-putting the Yavana element aside.
"I dont think,
the "Studies in Geography of Ancient Mediaval India"
by Dr Sircar is going to present any revolutionary information on the
Kambojas."
I suppose it's not
paramount then to attain a copy of it.(As long as we can still attain
an expert knowledge of Y-K-G without it,which I'm sure we
can).Nevertheless I give it a try .
Thanks,
By MR
(130.86.22.190) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:13 am:
FACTS
I got faculty staff
to do comprehensive search on Sircar volume in question from our
library and sister branches,but we don't have that one in stock!
Worse comes to worse
I'll request a special packaging order....Now I'm even more curious
to know what's in those five pages.
In the meanwhile, I
have two books on Sircar at my disposal ,one is on the Prakrits. I'll
try to get them as soon as possible.
MR
I dont think Sircar
has much to say on the Kambojas except concentrating on the possible
geographical location of Kamboja, based on ancient/medieval texts and
the inscriptions.
I have read some of
his material.
(1) He exclusively
invests the Kambojas with pure Iranian ethnicity/affinities.
(2)In his different
research articles which he published over time, Dr Sircar seems to
locate Kambojas mainly to the southern side of Hindukush......
In one of his
research papers, Dr Sircar has placed his Pir Panchal in south-west
of Kashmir and has located his Kamboja starting from this Pir-Panchal
i.e south-west Kashmir, West Panjab to as far as Mlechchadesha
i.e the Moslem Iran. He based his conclusions on the medieval text
ShaktiSangamtantra. [See his Panchala Kambvoja Bahlika and
Pandu-Pandya....Journal of Ancient Indian History Vol I, part 1-2,
1967-68, pp 195-97.]
Dr Sircar had read
the above refered paper in the Masik Sangoshati. [Ref Ancient
Kambokja, People the Country, 1980, Dr Kamboj]
Later in another
discussion article which had appeared in the Purana [See Purana, Vol
V, No 2, July, 1963; pp 355-359; also Purana Vol IV, No I, Jan 1964,
pp 215-219], which I have already refered to in my earlier write ups,
he has also located main concentration of Kambojas in
Archosia/Kandhar.
Comment:
The medieval age
"Shakti Sangam Tantra" text refers to the Kamboja country
as the land of plent for quality horses and further locates this
Kamboja starting from Panchala to as far as the Mlechchadesha. Now
the Mlechchadesha here, during medieval ages, was known as the land
of Moslem Iran. Dr Sircar accepts this the Panchal as 'Pir Panchal'
located in the south-west of Kashmir and thus extends the Kamboja to
the west as far as Moslem Iran. Hence Dr Sircar's location of Kamboja
as above.
Also based on
Shar-i-kuna inscriptions of king Ashoka, which are located in
Kandhar/Archosia, Dr Sircar also finds main concentration of Kambojas
in Archosia/Kandhar. Dr Michael also agrees with Dr Sircar in his
Persica-9, Early Eastern Iran and the Atharavaveda, 1980.pp 114, fn
80.
Hence from Dr
Sircar, we note that the Kambojas are located starting from SW
Kashmir/Rajari to Kabol valley [Kamboja of Dr H. C. Rauychaudhury, Dr
Bhandarkar, Dr B. C. Law, Dr Jayswal etc] and also in
Kandhar/Archosia where he locates main concentration of Kambojas.
K. D. Sethna locates
Yavanas in southern Kandhar/Archosia and locates or starts his
Kamboja in northern Kandhar and comes down to Kabol. The Parama
Kamboja of scholars Sethna, Dr M. R. Singh, C Lewis, Dr Jya Lal's as
affirmed from Mahabharata lies in Transhindkush territoies on Oxus
river....Tambyzoi of Ptolemy (see Indian Antiquaries, 203, p 54, S
Levi; cf McCrindle, Ptolemy, p 268).
I dont think, the
"Studies in Geography of Ancient Mediaval India" by
Dr Sircar is going to present any revolutionary information on the
Kambojas. But still, if you or some body else accesses the reference,
it would be a good idea to have entire information from pp 195-200,
put on this thread.
Thanks.
By MR
(130.86.22.26) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:54 am:
Facts:
"How much
intermarriage,in yuor opinion,took place between Yavana(Greeks) and
Kambojas?"
MR:
One can only make a
guess. I think your guess would be as good as mine.
BTW: The closer the
different tribes are in space and time, the more extensive is the
mixing...this is natural.
The Kambojas and
Yavanas fairly qualify both these requirements as we know from
ancient history. This is also reflected from the fact that both these
great ancient people of north-west had many similar social
customs....like both having only TWO SOCIAL CLASSES of people...Arya
Slaves [Ayyo Dasa of Buddhist
Text Majjhima Nikaya
2/149] and further, both people wearing their head HAIR SHORT
(Kambojah mundah yavanah munda).
Further their
religious practices are also supposed to have become
similiar......there are stated to be
no BRAHMANAS in the
lands of both Yavanas and the Kambojas at the time of Ashoka...(3rd c
BC).
Dr Jayswal observes:
" Ramayana Kishkanada (43,11) mentions 'KKAMBOJA-YAVANA caiya'
and Pali texts mention them as YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU.....The
YONE-KAMBOJ-ESU of Pali texts represent the YONAS who had settled
(with Kambojas)in the Kamboja (country). They had become integral a
part of this (Kamboja) country and started to be considered more as
the Kambojas than the Yonas or Yavanas....[see Hindu polity, Part I
II, A Constitutional History of Hindu India, Dr Jayswal].
The above statent
can give some estimate of Kamboja/Yavana mixing.
Rest is any body's
guess.
By MR
(130.86.22.90) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:06 am:
Facts:
Regarding the idiom
--Yona-Kamboja-Gandhara---------
Is there any
significance to the order in which it is spelled out?I think it's
always vocalized in this order.
MR
I also think so.
The above conjugal
expression i.e. Yona-Kamboja-Gandharnam.
is from Ashokas Rock
Edict No V, which is found in Mansehra in Hazara in N.W.F.P.
Pakistan; Shahbazgarhi in Peshawer (north-west) ;Kalsi in
Dehradun/UP; Girnar in Junagad/Surashtrara and Dhauli in Bhubneshwer
in Orissa.
Mahabharata also
contains similar kind of conjugal expressions about these three
people.
See for example:
Uttrapathajanmaan:
kirartyshyaami taanpi/
Yona kamboja
gandhara kirata barbarah saha//
[MBH 12/207/43]
More examples can be
quoted like these.
Name Yona alone is
also numerously associated with Kamboja.
Yone-Kambojesu (
Ashoka's Rock Edict XIII)
Yone-Kamboj-esu
(Majjhima Nikaya II 149)
Kamboja-yavanashchaya
(Ramayana k 43)
Kamboja-Yavana-Saka-Parda
(Ramayana 4-12)
Kambojairbahlika.....
(MBH 7/75/17, 2/27/22...Bahlika =Yavanas)
Tatha yavana-kamboja
mathuramabhitashcha ye (MBH 12/101/5)
..................
Does the order
signify anithing?
Regarding
Yona-Kamboja-Gandhara expression, many writers think that the order
is scientific and
defines these territories located in that orderthe Kamboja coming
between the Yona and the Gandhara . You can read for example, Dr K.
P. Jayswal, in his Hindu Polity, Part I, 1978, p 140.
In the edicts, they
are gruped together, which means that they were neighbors situated in
this order. The enumeration is scientific, being in geographical
sequence from west to east, which is also confirmed by Arrian
Facts
Significantly,was
the territorial integrity of these three nations linear(i.e. Kamboja
sandwiched between Yona and Gandhara country,and therefore not truly
contiguous) or triangular(i.e. all three nations sharing common
boders)?
MR
Yavanas are belived
in southern Archosia/Kandhar, the Gandharan were in
Peshawere/Taxila-Rawalpindi on west side of Kabol river, The Kambojas
in Kabol valley and according to Sircar and Michael, also in northern
Kandhar, you can imagine the kind of geographical relationship this
had.
Facts:
Yona/Yavana Country
= Ionian people = Indo-Greeks[at least the primordially]
Kamboja Country =
Kamboj/Kamboh people
But what of
Gandhara? I haven't heard of any people
called Gandharans?
MR
The descendents of
Gandhara dont exist as Gandharas today. They changed to other names
or probably merged with other communities over the time, just like
Kurus, Panchalas, Kosal;as, Chedis, Matasya, Madras or Kaikayas also
lost their ancient ethnic names. Do we hear the names of these
ancient tribes in todays population of northern India? or do we hear
of Saka, Kushana or Huna names these days?. answer is NO.
The descendents of
these above ancient tribes are believed to be represented by certain
population of north-west which has different names now. Also only a
very minuscule % of ancient Pahlavas and the Kambojas people have
dragged their ancient ethnic names to the current century. Major
portion of the population has already dropped the ancient name like
other ancient tribes as stated above and integrated into other
communities of northern India.
Modern day Kamboj
have some clan names like Gande, Gandhe, Gainde, Gaindher etc which
remind one of name Gandhara and thus also a possible Kamboja-Gandhara
connection.
I have also noted
couple of western references which invest Kambojas and Gandhara with
one ethnicity. I would search and put up here. And this is very
natural too.
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:13 am:
Sunny,
Why don't you
concentrate on your Mickey-Mouse history.
...We're trying to
hold a serious discussion here.
P.S. Want to help us
out on Sircar?.--check your library in California. Make yourself
useful instead of being envious of the Kamboj history.
By Sunny Singh
(207.213.221.191) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:15 am:
Hi Facts,
You're a joke.
Regards,
By Facts
(24.69.255.204) on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:24 am:
MR,
I got faculty staff
to do comprehensive search on Sircar volume in question from our
library and sister branches,but we don't have that one in stock!
Worse comes to worse
I'll request a special packaging order....Now I'm even more curious
to know what's in those five pages.
In the meanwhile, I
have two books on Sircar at my disposal ,one is on the Prakrits. I'll
try to get them as soon as possible.